Thanks for replying to my question Scott. I realized after I had sent it to you, that one of the bigger issues I face with a Vandersteen system, is subwoofer integration. I want to be able to use the 2wq subwoofer which requires a crossover be inserted between the pre-outs and main amp ins of whatever channel(s) you want the sub to go with, as a result, it requires you to connect it to your amp (a speaker level connection), rather than a .1 channel pre-out. Easy with a separates system, but more difficult with a receiver. I know they also offer a line-level subwoofer, but I felt that this particular model offered better blending with my speakers. I think I will have to start hunting on ebay and audiogon for good deals on multi-channel amps!
Receiver or Separates?
For some time now, I've wanted to move up from stereo to surround sound. My problem—besides having expensive tastes!—is that my speakers, Vandersteen 2Ces, seem to dictate that I should go for separates, but my budget says otherwise. I love my Vandersteens and am not willing to part with them, nor am I willing to go with another brand for the other channels. I currently have a pair of 125-watt Rotel monoblocks and an Adcom preamp.
My question is this: Should I wait until I can afford some decent separates or go with a receiver for now, possibly suffering a drop in sound quality from my current setup? Can you recommend a receiver that will adequately drive the Vandersteens?
I agree that separates are often superior to AVRs in sound quality, but the performance gap is getting narrower all the time, and you pay a hefty premium for a diminishing advantage. For me, the main reason to get separates is so you can match the power amp more precisely to your speakers—which is important mostly for difficult-to-drive models—and select a pre/pro with exactly the features you want. This also lets you upgrade the pre/pro as new features become available while retaining the power amp that is already well-matched with your speakers.
I don't agree that the Vandersteens necessarily dictate the use of separates—they would be well-served with a good AVR. According to the manufacturer's specs, their nominal impedance is 7 ohms (minimum 4 ohms) with an efficiency of 86dB and a recommended power rating of 40 to 160 watts as measured into an 8-ohm load. These are not demanding specs by any means, and they can be easily satisfied with a wide variety of AVRs.
You don't say what your budget is, but I assume it's less than $5000. If it were that high, you could consider separates like the Onkyo Pro PR-SC885 pre/pro ($2000) and NAD M25 power amp ($3000). Alternatively, you could think about the Denon AVR-5308CI receiver ($5500), which wowed long-time audiophile Wes Phillips.
If we assume your budget is more in the $2000 range, there are a number of AVRs that would fill the bill nicely. Fred Manteghian—another dyed-in-the-wool audiophile—liked the Marantz SR8002 so much, he bought one to drive his MartinLogan speakers. He admits that it provides minimal video processing, so it wouldn't be a good choice if you need some horsepower there. David Vaughn raved about the Denon AVR-4308CI, though it's a bit pricier at $2500. He points out that the AVR-3808CI is $900 less while retaining most of the 4308's capabilities.
If you can wait until the fall, I expect great things from the Pioneer Elite SC-07 AVR, which will list for $2200. It features many of the same advanced technologies found in the company's $7000 SC-09TX, such as Direct Energy HD ICEpower amplification. Tom Norton is reviewing the SC-09TX for Home Theater, and his preliminary observations are very positive. UAV will be reviewing it in about a month, and I plan to publish a review the SC-07 as soon as it becomes available.
Another approach is to spend as little as you can now in order to more quickly save up for the separates you really want. In this case, I'd recommend the Onkyo TX-SR606. For only $600, you get 90Wpc (a conservative spec that our measurements actually exceeded), all the new audio codecs, Audyssey auto setup and Dynamic EQ, four HDMI inputs, and surprisingly good sound quality according to reviewer David Vaughn. It would certainly hold you over fairly well until you could afford separates.
AVRs have come a long way in the last few years, and the best ones have nothing to apologize for when compared with separates. Sure, a good set of separates might sound marginally better than a good AVR, but is that worth a seriously higher price tag? Only you can decide that for yourself.
If you have an audio/video question for me, please send it to scott.wilkinson@sourceinterlink.com.
- Login or register to post comments
Comments
Colin, If you are looking at amplifiers, check out www.wyred4sound.com, I am currently reviewing their 5 x 250W Class D amp(8 ohms), and I've been blown away by it's power (amoung other things). It is very musically inclined with excellent dynamics and with movie soundtracks, batton down the hatches! The review should be posted within the next 7-10 days, but I wanted to give you the heads-up since you are in the market. Pair one of their amps with an Onkyo 885 (or Integra 9.8), and you will be VERY satisfied. Regards, David
I recently went from a Bryston 9B-ST and Meridian 568 to a Denon AVR-3808ci. Initially I was very skeptical and thought I would be sacrificing sound quality to get HDMI and the newer audio codecs. However I am really impressed by the Denon. In particular the difference a proper Audyssey calibration made. I tried the Denon as a Pre-Pro with the Bryston and the sound difference was so minor I decided to go Denon alone. I'm extremely impressed by the sound of this Denon. It seems to really integrate well with B&W nautilus speakers. I also heard the Mar ants 8002 and was equally impressed. Receivers have really turned a corner in terms of sound quality.
David, Thank you for the suggestion, I had not heard of Wyred 4 Sound. Although these are out of my price range currently, I am intrigued by this new wave of Class D amplifiers. Last I really gave them a listen, they had some real promise, but I felt that there was still something missing from them. The best sounding Class D amps I have heard are from NuForce. I feel like this type of amplifier has a good chance of becoming very popular due to their incredible power output and efficiency in a world gone "green".
It is important to note that when you listen to the upper echelon and flagship receivers from companies like Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer etc., without doubt, there seems to be little difference in the performance levels between these and a good set of separates. These particular receivers, however, are in a price range that gives you many other options. Although I have always purchased receivers in the past, given the terrific price/performance ratio in the existing and forthcoming products from internet only companies like Outlaw and Emotiva, who specialize in separates, these are just too hard to resist. Unlike receivers, quality, good sounding multi-channel power amps won't become obsolete.
The question of the ages. I would recommend that blind testing take place first. Some separates are no match for some receivers. Really evaluating the unit as whole and not worrying about the case should help. I would suggest that you use the denon 5805 and add their separates amp later.
Ron, that is an excellent point. If I were in a situation that I had to decide between a receiver and separates in the same price class, I would almost certainly go with separates, as long as the features I need, and the sound quality, are both there. Reason being, is that separates allow for more flexibility, and regarding the subwoofers I mentioned in the above post, this flexibility kind is almost mandatory.
Hi Colin! The Vandersteen 2C series are great speakers and not just for the money. I'm assuming here that you're going to want to stick with Richard Vandersteen's designs as you build out your music-slash-home-theater system and add the VCC-1 center and maybe a pair of slightly used but oh so cool 1Cs for the rear channels for good, all around timbre matching? One thing I would caution you about, is selecting the funky 'tweener version of the Vandersteen sub that requires you insert a couple of the impedance correct tadpoles between the preamp and the amp and then use the speaker level crossover in the sub to restore frequency balance. For anyone not familiar with Richard Vandersteen's designs, this may all sound like alchemy, but it works and works very well. And I know, I used to own a 2W which matted beautifully with my Magnepan IIIa speakers and offered the most musical bass I've ever had in my listening room. And became practically useless when I moved into home theat
er. In your price range, you'll find some receivers with pre-amp outs, but you'll have a tough time finding one with a full "loop" (meaning return inputs to the amplification section of the receiver). These were very popular in the days of two-channel (porno)graphic equalizers, but in a multi-channel rig equipped with Audyssey EQ, hardly a good choice for a crammed packed rear panel. So I'm recommending you stick with the Vandersteen sub, but go for the V2W that has line level inputs. Most good receivers let you pick the sub to fill in bass when you've engaged "stereo," so you'll get the most out of your collection of organ music too. That way, you can use the sub with separates or with a receiver, which ever you decide! "A round of applause for Colin everyone, and thanks for being on the show!"
Fred, I actually was intending to get a pair of the 2Wq's eventually, and indeed know about how they connect to a system (see my first post), however, I am curious about how you say it "became practically useless" in your home theater. In what way? Wouldn't it sound just as good if used in a HT? I have not heard the 2Wq in a HT setup before (at least not without other subs utilized as well), but figured the bass would be pretty good if the processor was configured to send all .1 information to the front channels. Please let me know... Thanks!
Colin, maybe "useless" is the wrong term - "impractical for a reviewer" would be a better term. Because most AVRs have pre-amp out jacks but not "amp-in" jacks, you can't incorporate thw 2WQ's tadpole. Now if you're going separates (pre-pro plus amp), or want to use the AVR as a pre-pro only with a multi-channel amp, you can get away with. I can't. Plus, it does limit you down the road too, should a really great receiver come along (and I'd say that there already are some really great receivers out there), you won't be able to use it. Hope that makes more sense. Going with a line-level, you'll get the same great Vandy bass sound (it's tight and tuneful, but you'll have better integration options with whatever AVR gear you buy now - and in the future.
Colin, Take a look at Rotel separates. For under $3k maybe less you can get a very nice package. Also check out their receivers. If you like you might want to contact Rotel to see when they will have products that are HDMI1.3 compliant and have all the latest surround sound codecs or whatever. Rotel's recievers sound better than most of the compettion and provide high value for the dollar
Fred- Ok, that makes sense. Dave- Haha, yes, I am very familiar with Rotel. I'm actually using an older pair of 125 watt Rotel monoblocks to power my system now. After recently comparing the Rotel receivers to NAD receivers, I would say I actually prefer the NAD's. The sound was more dynamic and had more resolution. I think that going for inexpensive separates is ultimately going to be the best route for me. I will be sure to check out Rotel's latest processor when it comes time to buy, as I have always been a fan of their processors in the past, although, just looking at it on the website now, it seems Rotel is a bit behind the curve on features- no new codecs, only one HDMI output... Hopefully the sound will make up for that.
The fact that Rotel is behind the curve as Colin points out is the reason why I am not planning to publish reviews its AVRs or pre/pros.I, too, really like the Rotel sound, but without all the new codecs and many HDMI inputs, I can't justify spending my limited resources on them. I hope Rotel introduces new products that bring it into the Blu-ray era.
Well, I bit the bullet and bought a 5 channel amp from someone advertising on Audiogon. I bought it based on the reputation (Theta Digital), but I am going in pretty blindly otherwise. I am a little concerned with the power output, it's "only" 100 watts/channel. I may bi-amp if I feel it's too lightweight, and use my Rotel's for surrounds. Next up, pre-pro! I am leaning heavily towards the Integra/Onkyo stuff right now. Talking with a dealer earlier today, he mentioned that the Integra 9.8 is soon to be updated to the 9.9; he didn't know what the changes would be, however.
I assume you purchased a Theta Intrpid. You will be very pleased with its match with the Vandersteens. The Theta is a junior version of their Dreadnaught with similar voicing which is somewhat tube like and very musical. The 100 W is real beefy and plenty of power for the 2Ce's. I'm sure you made a good buy on this excellent, but discontuned amp. I would consider mating it with the Integra DTC-9.8 pre/pro, and you will be completely up to date.
Site Map / Direct Links| Displays Speakers |  |
HT Systems Sources Electronics | |
Other Gear Software AV Interiors | |
Top Picks
|
|
Community Show Reports | |
Blogs
|
|
Shop Resources Subscriptions |
