Wow! Thanks for finally explaining 3:2 for me. Now if you can just explain why we need HDMI. Who listens through their display? Source to A/V reciever, OK. But many projectors don't even have audio capability. Is it purely for the so far unused copy protection?Thanks HT, for everything I know about, well, HT!
1080i v. 1080p
There has been a lot of concern and confusion over the difference between 1080i and 1080p. This stems from the inability of many TVs to accept 1080p. To make matters worse, the help lines at many of the TV manufacturers (that means you, Sony), are telling people that their newly-bought 1080p displays are really 1080i. They are idiots, so let me say this in big bold print, as far as movies are concerned THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1080i AND 1080p. See, I did it in caps too, so it must be true. Let me explain (if your eyes glaze over, the short version is at the end).
For clarification, let me start by saying that there are essentially no 1080i TVs anymore. Unless you bought a CRT based TV, every modern TV is progressive scan (as in LCD, Plasma, LCOS, DLP). They are incapable of displaying a 1080i signal as 1080i. So what we’re talking about here mostly applies to people with 1080p native displays.
Movies and almost all TV shows are shot at 24 frames-per-second (either on film or on 24fps HD cameras). All TVs have a refresh rate of 60Hz. What this means is that the screen refreshes 60 times a second. In order to display something that is 24fps on something that is essentially 60fps, you need to make up, or create new frames. This is done using a method called 3:2 pulldown (or more accurately 2:3 pulldown). The first frame of film is doubled, the second frame of film is tripled, the third frame of film is doubled and so on, creating a 2,3,2,3,2,3,2 sequence. It basically looks like this: 1a,1b,2a,2b,2c,3a,3b,4a… Each number is the original film frame. This lovely piece of math allows the 24fps film to be converted to be displayed on 60Hz products (nearly every TV in the US, ever).
This can be done in a number of places. With DVDs, it was all done in the player. With HD DVD, it is done in the player to output 1080i. With Blu-ray, there are a few options. The first player, the Samsung, added the 3:2 to the signal, interlaced it, and then output that (1080i) or de-interlaced the same signal and output that (1080p). In this case, the only difference between 1080i and 1080p is where the de-interlacing is done. If you send 1080i, the TV de-interlaces it to 1080p. If you send your TV the 1080p signal, the player is de-interlacing the signal. As long as your TV is de-interlacing the 1080i correctly, then there is no difference. Check out this article for more info on that.
The next Blu-ray players (from Pioneer and the like) will have an additional option. They will be able to output the 1080p/24 from the disc directly. At first you may think that if your TV doesn't accept 1080p, you'll miss out on being able to see the "unmolested" 1080p/24 from the disc. Well even if your TV could accept the 1080p/24, your TV would still have to add the 3:2 pulldown itself (the TV is still 60Hz). So you're not seeing the 1080p/24 regardless.
The only exception to that rule is if you can change the refresh on the TV. Pioneer's plasmas can be set to refresh at 72 Hz. These will take the 1080p/24, and do a simple 3:3 pull down (repeating each frame 3 times).
Short Version
What this all means is this:
• When it comes to movies (as in HD DVD and Blu-ray) there will be no visible difference between the 1080i signal and the 1080p signal, as long as your TV correctly de-interlaces 1080i. So even if you could input 1080p, you wouldn't see a difference (because there is none).
• There is no additional or new information in a 1080p signal from movie based content.
• The only time you would see a difference is if you have native 1080p/60 content, which at this point would only come from a PC and maybe the PS3. 1080p/60 does have more information than 1080i/30, but unless you're a gamer you will probably never see native 1080p/60 content. It is incredibly unlikely that they will ever broadcast 1080p (too much bandwidth) or that 1080p/60 content will show up on discs (too much storage space and no one is using it to record/film).
So all of you people who bought 1080p displays only to be told by the companies that you had bought 1080i TVs, relax. The TV will convert everything to 1080p. Now if you bought a TV that doesn't de-interlace 1080i correctly, well, that's a whole other story.
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Comments
Submitted by Jason on October 4, 2006 - 9:55pm.
So heres a question. If the source you're watching is 1080p, and the tv is 1080p then wouldnt that look more fluent than a 1080i tv? Especially on a size like a 72" or something of that nature. Just throwing the frame rate out and factoring in the way that an interlaced signal is drawn im comparission to a progressive signal.
Submitted by Charlie Prince on October 27, 2006 - 4:45pm.
Very helpful article -- but what about the TVs that output 1080p/24? (The new Mittsubishi HC5000BL projector for example). In that case, doesn't the 1080p matter (and hence a 1080p/24fps output from say a new blu ray player will look better on it)? Then it's never being converted from or to anything and will have less imperfections that would result from the various conversions you mention? My concern here is interestingly the opposite of what you're talking about -- I'm not worried about the TV, I'm trying to figure out if it matters that the first generation Hi-def players output 1080i whereas the 2nd generation will output 1080p. Obviously if it doesn't matter, why pay more for the Toshiba HDX-A2 if the HDX-A1 (or the A1 for that matter) can output 1080i?
Submitted by Peter Loon on November 3, 2006 - 11:51pm.
This article was fabulous!But can I confirm:My potential DVD player purchase (Oppo 970 or 971) will output 1080i through its componet outputs?If I pass it through my Marantz THX reference SR 12 AV AMP it will also pass the 1080i to my Hitachi plasma (which is 1080i capable)- this amp has no HDMI?I felt pretty sad when I was under the impression only HDMI pased 1080i signals.ThanksP
Submitted by Mcubed on November 11, 2006 - 8:25am.
Ok, for some of us that will not change their viewing area for 5 - 10 years, I'm looking at a 40 - 46" Sony Bravia xbrt2. The viewing area will be ~ 10 - 12 feet. I would think the image would improve dramatically with 1080p over 720p from that distance. Is that correct assuming a HD cable box and HD-DVD player capable of 1080p output?
Submitted by Hitachidude on November 11, 2006 - 10:05pm.
Just bought a Hitachi 42HDS69 Plasma. I saw it in the store, and it looked great, but it's at home when it counts. Does anyone know if this will de-interlace 1080i correctly?Three reasons I bought this: 3 HDMI connections, 1024x1080 resolution, and $1500(Circuitcity.com, with 1 day $200 discount on all big screens) out the door. But it needs to perform well, otherwise it's not worth it. Any input on this Hitachi plasma?
Submitted by darren on February 7, 2007 - 2:52am.
i just purchased a jvc 56" 1080p lcos rear projection lcd hdtv. the colors are great and some of the hd stations are perfect. I just finished watching the superbowl and many of the moving players were very blurry or pixelated. would i get the same result if i trade it in for the sony? like is this as good as it gets? does the refresh rate have anything to do with the poor pq? watching hockey is sad as well because they move so fast. please help me.
Submitted by darren on February 10, 2007 - 1:34am.
i just purchased a jvc 56" 1080p lcos rear projection lcd hdtv. the colors are great and some of the hd stations are perfect. I just finished watching the superbowl and many of the moving players were very blurry or pixelated. would i get the same result if i trade it in for the sony? like is this as good as it gets? does the refresh rate have anything to do with the poor pq? watching hockey is sad as well because they move so fast. please help me.
Submitted by Edward on April 21, 2007 - 8:02am.
Some months ago I bought a Phillips 42 inches 9731D. I bought it thinking it was 1080p, and resolution-wise it is, but it only accepts 1080i and it was a big letdown for me to know what this means. Now, I am happy to know that theoretically there is no loss in quality if it deinterlaces correctly, but how can I know it is doing it correctly? Does anyone know if this is a good lcd in regards to this? Any comments? George?
Submitted by Filip Perlhagen on April 22, 2007 - 7:14am.
Just to point out that you are contradicting yourself."THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1080i AND 1080p."vs"The only time you would see a difference is if you have native 1080p/60 content."Make up your mind which sentence represents your position and change the article to so it brings clearness instead of adding more ambiguity to the 1080i/1080p discussion.
Submitted by Christian Paredes on May 7, 2007 - 3:00pm.
I have a PS3 on a Philips 32PF5320/28, if modern TV's take the 1080i and convert it to either 720p or 1080p, why wont my PS3 output 1080p to the TV? am I actually getting 1080p? (PS3 output is set to automatic and only goes for 480p, 720p and 1080i)
Submitted by Terry on December 19, 2006 - 2:19pm.
I'm preparing to purchase all new AV gear. I've been researching HDTVs and read with great interest Gary Merson's article dated October 2006 "Are you getting. . . round 2". I don't see a way to contact him with my question so I'll try you. I'm looking for 45-50 in LCD display, seating distance 9-10 feet, cable will provide most input with the occasional DVD from the video store.Based on the pass/fail table on the delinterlace test and 3:2 film cadence test, I see no LCD HDTV larger than 37" that pass both test.What the practical effect of this? Do I have to chhose a set that passes one test vs another? Thoughts?
Submitted by LeRoy VanHee on September 20, 2007 - 3:50pm.
I believe there is a problem converting 1080i to 1080p. Progressive frames are created at the same instant. Intelaced frames are created with the odd lines in one half-frame and the even lines in another. The two half-frames are produce 1/60th of a second apart. When the two half-frames are combined to produce one progressive frame any motion in the frame is blurred.I have a Canon HV-10 HD camcorder. It produces 1080i video. Any motion in the video is blurred if played on my computer (progressive scan) but look good when down-converted to 480i and played on a old-fashion TV (except for the aspect ratio and resolution of course). I have seen no specs on HD camcorders that produce 1080p video, and no HD TVs that play 1080i. This means moving objects filmed on HD camcorders will always be blurred when played on an HD TV.What's the point of taking video pictures if moving objects are blurred? You might as well take stills.
Submitted by Jatan on September 27, 2007 - 12:37am.
OK. I understand most of this stuff, but I am relatively new to this HD bandwagon and have a very silly question! In one of the ads of a leading HD TV (32 inch LCD), it said that the screen resolution is 1366 x 768, BUT, the ad also says that its display capability is 1080p. How is this possible if the screen resolution is only 768 in height? Thanks!
Submitted by Gene on October 22, 2007 - 3:00pm.
What would you say to an article that seems to understand all the details you mention but states that 1080P is worth it? http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_1/feature-article-1080p-3-2007-part...
Submitted by richard on October 31, 2007 - 2:15pm.
hi there, i've just brought a sony av amp which has a hdmi switch box on but it says it is in 1080i. will this also transmit a 1080p picture. i've been told that the switch box would work well as it is amplified but i dont want to loose any picture quality. i'm connecting a ps3 (for blue ray) and sky hd box to my 1080p samsung lcd which does have 2 hdmi ports, but using the amp would save me having to buy 2 5m hdmi leads.what would you reccomend i use.thanks for any advice.
Submitted by Dan on November 4, 2007 - 3:04pm.
All New Projectors and HDTV's are Progressive devices, so the picture you watch, if 1080 (1920 pixels wide by 1080 pixels high)is a 1080P picture (not 1080i). All 1080i means in the specs, is they will accept a signal coming in that is interlaced, but it is converted to Progressive 1080p inside the HDTV or projector as it is displayed. No new HDTV or projector, LCD, DLP, Plasma, Lcos, are interlaced devices, they are all progressive. The 1080i/1080p appearing in the specs refer only to the input signal they will accept and handle properly. A 720p display (1280 pixels wide by 720 pixels high) that accepts a 1080i signal will "interpolate" the pixels from 1920x1080 to 1280x720, so it will lack some detail, but will still look as great as a 1280x720 picture can. "Interlaced" came from old CRT TVs, that were 525 lines, but scanned as 2 x 212 line 60hz fields, with the second 212 lines scanned "interlaced" in between the first 212 lines. This was done to reduce visable 30 hz f
Submitted by Dan on November 4, 2007 - 3:21pm.
Sorry, couldn't finish my last sentence. The interlacing was only done to REDUCE THE FLICKER seen at the 30 hz frame rate on old CRT TVs, and this allowed them to increase the effect "field" rate to 60 hz and still maintain the same smaller video bandwidth. If not for that, old TV's from day 1 could have been "progressive scan", where each line is "progressively drawn one after the other", rather than interlaced in between previous lines.
Submitted by Lou on November 8, 2007 - 4:17pm.
I offer this piece of advice to everyone: Go to a store, and LOOK at the TVs, and decide based on emperical evidence from your eyes, which TV looks best to you. Then look at the price tag, and figure out where you want to compromise. Making an HD TV purchasing decision based on technical specs alone is not a good idea. Check out the specs after you've looked at the picture.
Submitted by adrian garcia on November 13, 2007 - 8:07pm.
i have a ps3 that is currently playing 1080p but i only have a vizio 42" plasma that maxes out to 1080i. im trying to understand why the tv setting is reading it as 1080p even if there not a setting for that on my tv. my info button on the tv says 1080p so is it really reading that. if not, what is the best setting for games and moves thank you,adrian.
Submitted by Mathy on November 26, 2007 - 6:32am.
This main post could be true one year ago. Will the author,say the same today with this LCD TV:Philips 42PFL9732 Full HD 1080P, 100HZ. Sorry, i do not know anything about all this and trying to learn from you. With other words, what does he say at toady on the market available TV vs those in 2006?
Submitted by baccusboy on November 27, 2007 - 9:47am.
But you failed to mention that TVs often sold as 1080i-capable are actually only at 1366x768 resolution. Most are that way these days, in fact. The image is downconverted to 1366x768 resolution.What you are saying could mislead a person into thinking that a 1080i-capable TV (which has only 1366x768 resolution) is the same as a 1080p TV. This is certainly not the case.
Submitted by Celique on December 9, 2007 - 8:17am.
first there is vhs then there is dvd then progressive dvd for hd tvs then blu ray maybe i missed a few steps i can not understand much what you are saying much all i know is the movies i watch they put way to much make up on now and look fake the only really great scenes i see are superheros with costumes are cartunes but not to much into watching movies where i can see the pores of peoples faces it never got this bad till blu ray i have a hd tv am completely happy with it would never get a blu ray 1080i as it says or what ever it is is fine for me people that need more are missing somthing out of there lifes to need that much more or just have way to much money and should be maybe spending it on somthing of people that dont have so much in other countrys start thinking of more wonderfull things to do with there time then figure out how better then can get there movies to look maybe this is a negative statement to most but there the people trapped in this world in the end you will never ever get the best.
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